[ENGLISH] WaveIo XMOS Interface Group Buying

Hello guys,
I apologies for this late post but as Ciro (sonic63) told before, there were few personal issues that I had to solve right away so no laptop while internet connection for phone was limited at best. Moreover I'm sorry to use English on a thread when the main language is Italian, still I would avoid letting Google to mess up my message translating it into some sort of string-mix closed to your language. Anyway, I wished to honor Porfido's invitation to join to this group buy. This way I wish to thank him for his valuable work in "spreading the word" about WaveIO and what it can do: thank you very much!
Frankly put, latest news about WaveIO got me by surprise and now I'm trying my best to fulfill all the already-made orders while taking new ones. Ciro says that I didn't mention the delivery time: it's true. I need a considerable amount of time for one board to fully assembled, tested, customized, tested again and cleaned up + packing. I'm thinking to switch on automatic assembly but this design is not ready (yet) for that procedure. Regarding the number of boards, I have to say that it doubled, at least! Last time I've checked were around 10 but now...
Payment, well, it's complicated.... that's because Paypal allows me to make a max 500 Euro payment once at a time so if you want to take advantage of the PP guaranty then you have to split the total amount. The downside is that every time there will be charges involved in every transaction you'll made (3.4% + €0.35 EUR) so that's not a very good news for any of us. In my opinion the real advantage comes from wire transfer where the charges are not that high as all the PP fees together. Still, the decision is up to you guys so I'll respect it whatever will be.
Kind regards,
Lucian (Lorien on Diyaudio forum)

Welcome Lorien,
I'm happy to read you on the Tforum.
Approximately how long you need to assemble 24 WaveIO ?

Can you give me us advice about power supply ?

Thank you.

Sorry for my Google English.

Hello Flovato,
well, taking into account that my newly boards are already sold out and I have to make a new order tomorrow, well I guess 35 days or less if I will take it "personally" and struggle to shrink this time. There's someone else now that will help me assembly WaveIO cards so this approximation is closest to real.
Power supply: 5Vdc @ 0.5A min. I would recommend to use 0.6A at least... just for "safety" reasons! WaveIO can withstand to up to 5.9-6Vdc max at Power connector still... this value is very closest to "critical" one. WaveIO have a protection diode with a drop out voltage of ~0.315V @ 0.5A: MBR120VLSFT1G
If there is 5.5V after this diode the first that will end up in smoke could be LP5900s from the oscillators. From what I recall, there are other regulators that can also be damaged with 5.5-6V.
Kind regards,
L

Huh.. I see that there's already a problem with english language here. With admin's approval I suggest to keep this thread "as is" and I'll answer to your questions though Porfido or anyone else willing to talk to me privately.
Best wishes,
L

Welcome Lorien!
A good deal of us speak pretty good English.
And there is someone who speaks Romanian too
Anyway, IMHO it's good if you have only one or two of us who will be our interfaces with you for our business.

Lorien ha scritto: Huh.. I see that there's already a problem with english language here. With admin's approval I suggest to keep this thread "as is" and I'll answer to your questions though Porfido or anyone else willing to talk to me privately.
Best wishes,
L

Which problem with english language do you refer to? I can open a twin-thread with "English language only" tag in the title where you can answer all the questions about this interesting product. I think that answering in the forum is much better then via PMs only, to avoid repeating questions.

Smanetton ha scritto:
And there is someone who speaks Romanian too

Bine ai venit !

Multumesc mult Florin! Ti-am trimis PM!
@ Admin: please do so! Guess it's the most favorable alternative since I'm only capable to write in - kind of - english (or romanian when needed). Thank you for understanding!
Kind regards,
Lucian

Lorien ha scritto:@ Admin: please do so! Guess it's the most favorable alternative since I'm only capable to write in - kind of - english (or romanian when needed). Thank you for understanding!

Done! Original thread here (Italian):
https://www.tforumhifi.com/t23211-sorgenti-cd-vs-dac-vintage

Plese go on with the discussion in English in THIS thread. Thank you!

Thank you!

@ Florin [ROM]: Ti-am raspuns folosind adresa de email pe care mi-ai furnizat-o in primul tau mesaj (cea de pe Yahoo). Te rog verifica si spune-mi daca l-ai primit! Stiu ca nu pot trimite PM direct pe forum. Am incercat si am vazut ca nu am acces.
Toate cele bune,
L

@ Lorien
I read in the diyAudio thread about WaveIO (page 9) that you wrote:
"I've done all my best (at that time) to make it bit-perfect or close to that functionality. Unfortunately, my effort will become useless as long as S/PDIF is a preference".
It happens that my DACs don't have I2S inputs...
So, if I well understood, with WaveIo there are not so much improvements compared with, say, a Tenor TL7022, when using S/PDIF.
Moreover, would your WaveIo work when connected to a PC with the standard Windows (XP or 7) drivers and no ASIO4all?
Thanks!

If I understood well (reading on the huge number of pages in DIYAudio forum), WaveIO works with the driver for win PCs that comes directly from XMOS.
It is an USB Class 2 Audio driver, with ASIO interface.
This architecture also comes from original XMOS implementation.
Being an USB Class 2 Audio driver, no installation is required with Apple or Linux systems.

In any case Asio4All is a solution that should be used only when there is no ASIO implementation designed and tested by original developer.
In any case that I personally tried Asio4All had very poor and unpredictable performances.

@Lorien: can you confirm my message (I am not 100% sure...)?

@ Lorien
I read in the diyAudio thread about WaveIO (page 9) that you wrote:
"I've done all my best (at that time) to make it bit-perfect or close to that functionality. Unfortunately, my effort will become useless as long as S/PDIF is a preference".
It happens that my DACs don't have I2S inputs...
So, if I well understood, with WaveIo there are not so much improvements compared with, say, a Tenor TL7022, when using S/PDIF.
Moreover, would your WaveIo work when connected to a PC with the standard Windows (XP or 7) drivers and no ASIO4all?
Thanks!

If I remember right, it was in a context where someone, with a rather aggressive attitude, wanted to say that same performance could also be achieved using an SPDIF or AES/EBU adapter. At least that I've understand at that time... Well, we all know that for short distances, SPDIF performance is under that of I2S, hence my reply to his statement. Please don't get me wrong, it was contextual and related to the I2S vs SPDIF meaning: (bit-perfect + I2S) vs (bit-perfect + SPDIF).
If you don't have any choices and must use SPDIF then that's another story. There are other than use WaveIO with SPDIF output and are, at least, pleased about the results.
Drivers: For Windows environments you need WaveIO drivers which can be downloaded from here: www . luckit . biz / downloads (sorry for my messed-up web site). Thesycon and XMOS does not recommend to use ASIO4ALL but dedicated ASIO.
Kind regards,
L

@Lorien: can you confirm my message (I am not 100% sure...)?

99% The differences are at the USB VID/PID strings. I cannot use XMOS' values since I'm NOT XMOS... so the drivers made from XMOS reference design would work with that design. WaveIO's are, in fact, builded using the Thesycon direver's kit and are 99% identical with XMOS ones.. with few minor changes related to the .inf files, specific to WaveIO... and my own signature certificate (for kernel streaming runs on Win Vista / 7).
Kind regards,
L

Hi Lucian,
could you please tell us what are the main differences between WaveIO and the Xmos Reference Board?
http://www.xmos.com/products/development-kits/usbaudio2

If you could, let's say, tell it in simple words (talking about the main features of power supply and general quality of components) could be very useful!
Thank you!

Ok, let's say that at the beginning I've made few lists with almost all kind of voltage regulators from National (now TI), TI, Linear, Maxim and others (for 1.8V, 3.3V and 1.0V - two types) and choose the chips that have the lowest noise I can find while keeping the prices ... somehow affordable (NOT cheap!). I must say that there's no Voltage regulator on WaveIO's that is identical with the XMOS one. Besides that, the decoupling network is modified as you can clearly see, every chip is heavily decoupled to minimize the noise as much as possible. Again, lists with caps were made. The WaveIO board is optimized for short/fast an clean layout. The board has four layers on it with in 35/70/70/35 micrometers copper thickness configuration. The internal layers act as fast return paths for all of the currents. There are two GND regions... the right side is for the oscillators (a "quiet" one) while the rest is for digital processing. I suppose there are other features that can;t remember right now. Most of them are founded on the diyaudio forum at first page.
Kind regards,
L

Thank you very much!

Hello Flovato,
yes, in fact there are quite a few but I would avoid making comments on products that I don't have nor run some tests with them... sorry! What I can say though, is that I have one XMOS reference design at home which it's manufactured like a "reference design": for me it seems that the layout is made with autorouter (crosstalk/reflection/ unequal signals delays... anyone?). In fact I do remember that it was a revision from XMOS in which they reroute one trace that was important for the quality of the In/Out I2S signals. Something like moving one of the clock signal to avoid too much crosstalk. BUT, I do understand XMOS in this matter since their option and sight on the layout is treated as a Reference Design! On a first sight, Aqua seems to be close to the XMOS reference design, with slight changes. From my experience, adding an I2S connector and a logo on the left-side of the card will not bring performance.
Ah, one thing that I understand from you and I want to thank you for that is that WaveIO card seems to be way too underevaluated for what it offers! So, I'm thingking to end that promotional price of 99 Euro per card (WITHOUT shipping and transcation fees).
Thank you for letting me know,
L

Lorien ha scritto:

@Lorien: can you confirm my message (I am not 100% sure...)?

99% The differences are at the USB VID/PID strings. I cannot use XMOS' values since I'm NOT XMOS... so the drivers made from XMOS reference design would work with that design. WaveIO's are, in fact, builded using the Thesycon direver's kit and are 99% identical with XMOS ones.. with few minor changes related to the .inf files, specific to WaveIO... and my own signature certificate (for kernel streaming runs on Win Vista / 7).
Kind regards,
L

I am sorry Lorien (Lucian...?) to insist again, but I need to be sure.

WaveIO driver stays under a Windows sw architecture as an ASIO driver.
Is it right?
It is rather important for those who use Foobar which is quite stable and performs well with ASIO.
I am an user of that sw and I find it just the tool I need, from a long list of point of view about possible features.

Wasapi or KernelStreaming tend to have different performances depending on sw packages and DACs.
And sometimes this means clicks, hiccups, disasters and the like.
As soon as you use ASIO every little problem seems to disappear (this is my experience due to a long life using VST, virtual musical instruments)
Thanks for your patience you are showing here! (but reading DIYAudio is really time consuming...)

Lorien ha scritto: Hello Furio,
with all the respect for you I want to say that there's a little dose of bereft of reason to ask my opinions about what competitor's are doing with/in their cards! Maybe I'm too dumb to see the reasons behind this initiative or,... not want to see it. Either way, to ask such a thing on threads named: "WaveIo XMOS Interface Group Buying" (both italian and english versions) and searching for alternative products while bringing photos.... and then ask me about them like I have any ideas or chances to know those products from distance,... well... after all, what's then the purposes of thread's names? All of them are named WaveIO and I do not know?
I strongly believe that if there's someone willing to have WaveIO card in his/her setup then he/she will contact me using ekits @ luckit . biz email or use the Diyaudio mailing system. In your and others case, please use above email address and I'll gladly respond to you!
My time on this forum is ended since, it's seems that most of the peoples are not searching for performance but poorly designed alternatives to XMOS reference design. Ah, and in the end I want to say that not the chip itself but the implementation is the one that makes the difference!
@ Admin: I kindly ask you to close this thread if possible!
Cheers,
L

Sorry Lorien, I hope you are still reading us.
My question (is your board using ASIO sw interface in windows?) is realetd ONLY TO WaveIO.
I was asking a simple technical detail about yor board.
If you think that someone is looking for a cheaper solution, I am afraid I have to tell you that this the usual situation worldwide: people want to save money...

I am sorry you are upset, because the most of us were clearly impressed by quality and design of your board.
I think you should stay here with us, you will probably get a lot of orders.
Customers must always be assured and be loved

Moderation:
OT messages have been removed from thread.

Lorien told me that he will still be kindly available to answer all your questions about his card in this thread.

Hi Lucian,

You probably remember a friend of mine from Novara, Vincenzo M. I have seen the boards you sold him (afaik not the waveIO yet) and I can vouch on the quality of the assembly.

Now my questions are entirely about the drivers, which are very critical. I need kernel streaming under windows7 64 bit and 176.4khz and possibly also 352.8k sampling rate support. Do the current drivers allow this? If not, can it be implemented in a reasonable timeframe (3-4 months)?
The main appeal for me of the waveIO interface is specifically support for 8x redbook sampling rate with kernel streaming.

Hello Telstar,
yes, I do remember you even if it's a rather long time ago You say about DAC4392 card which, unfortunately has reach its EOL... Thank you very much for your kind words about it! Regarding your question: customizing drivers is (still) an issue on my side mostly because Thesycon ask a lot of money for the job to be done (starting from 2k Euro - could be more if there's needed some additional work to be done to achieve the goal), money I cannot have right now to support this kind of development. I do have some plans but it will require some time and, regardless on how much I want to fulfill your demand, it is beyound my capabilities right now. So, saying shortly, there are few chances to happen in this period of timeframe (3-4 months). Given this "not so pleasant" situation, meanwhile I looked to improve the hardware part of this design and I'll continue doing this until the time is ready to change the SW as well.
Kind regards,
L

P.S. @ Admin: I want to thank you very much for listening my demands and act promptly! Because of his efforts I now answer on this forum again! Thank you!